I won't hang around in here too long (I haven't seen this yet, so I can't comment, nor will I listen to the 'cast). But, isn't this crossing dangerously close to the Sub VS. Dub fight that ever goes on in anime? I saw only the Macross section of "Robotech" from many, many moons ago (though long after it had finished its TV run), but I knew of "Macross"-proper beforehand though I've never seen it before. Now I know the differences- or at least a good share of them- between the two shows. Yes, I, too, would like to see a complete, accurate-as-possible, & official sub of the original "Macross" series (any suggestions where/who?), but I won't bag on "Robotech" until I have done so.

This also sounds, duke togu, an awful lot like the Super Sentai-VS-Power Rangers fight (which also parallels the Macross/Robotech battle). Now, in that case, after realizing what a sham PR was, I became what is known as a Sentai-snob (is that term still used?) because the content was just more engaging in its original form than the watered down always-end-the-episode-with-a-smile format of PR. That battle continues on- some like PR, others Super Sentai.
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CollectionDX Staff

I think this has been mentioned in the podcast about Macross, and in other places.

Where to get the original Macross TV:
AnimEigo released a 9 disc subtitled only set of Macross TV in 2001-2002. It sold out years ago.
Harmony Gold has re-released the AnimEigo set with new packaging. It's currently available for about 40$ for the whole set.
ADV released a dubbed and subtitled 7 disc set of Macross TV in 2006. It costs 20$ to 30$ per disc, but hit the right ADV sale and the price could be much less.

All these releases feature a superb digital restoration done by AnimEigo in 2001.

For what it's worth, I've never seen Robotech either. I've watched Macross and Mospeada as an adult, but never saw Robotech at all. And it was aired here and I'm 33. So, it's not like it's impossible to have not seen it.

"This must be settled the way nature intended....with a vicious, bloody fight!"
Onyx Blackman
Principal, Flatpoint High

I'm 22 actually. When I was a kid, I mostly watched stuff on tape. I had a few episodes Transformers, the Transformers movie, Return of Optimus Prime on a tape that also has the Gobots movie, and Macross in CLASH OF THE BIONOIDS that awful Celebrity Just for Kids version that is 30 minutes shorter with Hong Kong dub voices. My first exposure to Robotech was a single tape of episode 2. I was confused as to why Hikaru wasn't in his cool outfit from DYRL. I also saw the Cartoon Network run which was pretty hilarious in retrospect. Their new opening for the show and all the commercials they ran for it seemed to only feature Macross so I was really confused when, with an audible CLUNK, the show switched to Southern Cross. And then they never showed the Mospeada part. So whatever, I can watch these all on DVD now. So I got into Macross through the models, Jetfire, Macross 2, Macross Plus, and the VF-X game after that. Robotech or not, I'd still be a Macross fan.

And you know what? I don't care about your nostalgia. I don't even care about my nostalgia. I tried that stuff. All it got me was a bunch of wasted afternoons watching Real Media copies of Transformers episodes and writing bad fanfic.

Even with all the lulz drama here, at least we can agree that Shadow Chronicles sucks.

-Andrew

Ok, I'm 16 so In the ways of nostalgia I can't contribute much more than what aired in CN about 7-8 years ago. I will not lie, I got into anime because of DBZ, Gundam Wing, and Tenchi *insert series title here*.

Two of those three shows I can still watch and enjoy. They are DBZ and Tenchi. Wing was definitely "the s**t" back then, but now it is cringe worthy. It takes itself way too seriously while it rolls off corny dialog and an abundance nonsensical characters.

Point is, just because you have nostalgia doesn't make the s**t good. To me Gundam Wing is only the anime that got me into the mecha genre. Nothing more or less.

That's pretty funny. I've only listened to the two episodes of that had our own Roger Harkavy as a guest host. Nothing is funnier than him arguing with Dave aka 1st Border Red Devil or Brooklyn whatever about the Condor's groin area. The attitude of McKeever seems indicative of the overall frustration Harmony Gold must be having over this mess. I mean come on, thanks to Big West, their own arrogance, and some other stuff they cannot give their fans more of what they want which is Macross. They can't even try and put the universes together with Macross and Southern Cross totally off limits. And the big problem with Mospeada is that the story is finished at the end of the show. I honestly have to wonder what's the point of continuing Robotech other than brand name recognition, which is still only really seems to be equated with Macross. I wonder why they've never tried a total reboot of the franchise. I sure the live action movie will do that no doubts about it.

-Andrew

Yes, that's actually a lot of what the fans wanted to know. They wanted to know if the Valkyries would finally return or if they'd just design new mech. And it's obvious that they're just going to redesign new mech. I mean, if Michael Bay is going to redesign all the Transformers, you better believe that Robotech is going to get a swift across-the-board redesign. OF COURSE they will!

And you're absolutely right, if Robotech is brought back, the right thing to do would be to simply reboot the entire franchise. They own the trademarks to all the Americanized names, as far as I know. They could just make a new Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayse, and they could basically just rip off the general concept of Macross with entirely new mecha. I mean, Macross has been ripped off so many times already that nobody cares if someone does it again. I mean, as long as they're ripping off Babylon 5...

But to reboot Robotech, they would either have to make protoculture into a coherent concept or just purge it altogether. I'm not interested in this super science/magic flower/fuel/drug-of-choice thing they've been doing for twenty years already.

I mean, even ENERGON made more friggin' sense than this!

I going to have to go ahead and say that I disagree with Sanjeev on several things.

First off, I take issue when people, "lol nerds taking this too seriously" when this stuff is worth it for companies as franchises that make millions of dollars. If it's someone's job to care about this stuff. Look at Lucasfilm and Star Wars.It's their job to deliver a quality product (or at least try to) based on a franchise of glowie sticks and teddy bears.

Also, calling Macross some sub par sci-fi cartoon is an insult to the huge hit that it was back in the day. I mean, it's not everyday a sci-fi cartoon designed for selling toys gets a feature length movie (at least in Japan) otherwise we'd have Outerspace Mission SRUNGLE the movie.

I have never read the Robotech novels, but it is my understanding that despite being reprinted, they are largely irrelevant to the franchise. They may be good, but as you said they manage to do so well is because they are not like Robotech the show when it comes to presentation.

Regarding the Robotech version of Macross, I am aware that it is a much better adaptation than say the hack job done to Southern Cross or Megazone 23 (or both at the same time as it were), but what that means is that Robotech owes everything to Macross. Macross does have that Yamato/ Gundam pedigree that has endured it long enough for sequels to still be made today.

It's like, if you swap out Macross from Robotech with say, Dorvack, I don't think it would have been as popular. I haven't seen much of Dorvack, but I do know that it's about people in Transforming robots that fight blue dudes from space who pilot strange floating walker robots so it would at least fit the general theme of Robotech. So replace the established phenomenon of Macross with a show that was largely forgotten today and I don't think the whole thing would work as well. Granted, something like Golion is mostly forgotten in Japan while being a lot bigger in America so I might be mistaken.

I must admit that the reason I wanted to review Shadow Chronicles is because it didn't make it into the Robotech Trilogy of Pain in favor of Codename Robotech. This prompted me to actually see Shadow Chronicles after having read some of the reviews, very few of which are positive. As such, you guys got the review Todd and myself made to show our reactions to this disaster. If anything, I hope to discourage people from buying this crap which will hopefully discourage them from making more crap. Much like how G-Savior was a total flop and we thankfully don't have a G-Savior 2.

I suppose my biggest question to Robotech fans, is that what's is important to the franchise? What I hear from Roger is that the general fans and the general public see and want the Macross part or at least something like it. To me, Shadow Chronicles represents an attempt to continue Robotech "the story" as in that vaguely defined MULTI GENERATIONAL EPIC as per the tagline I've seen. And let's be honest, that's probably the weakest aspect of the story if only due to the nature of how it was put together. And especially now in light of all the problems Harmony Gold faces in trying to make a sequel that could tie everything together. So what should they be focusing on? EPIC or a good story? The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but trying to make the EPIC work now is about as hard as getting Macross DYRL released in America.

-Andrew

Well, my dad can beat up your dad! Nyah!

;)

Nah, I like your arguments, but I still sorta don't buy it. First off, let me be clear about a couple things. Everything I said in my previous comment is just my opinion (despite my tone!). I call myself a Robotech fan (and a Macross fan, incidentally), but I've never seen the Robotech Movie (Megazone 23) and I have no clue what some terms like "Robotech Trilogy of Pain" or "Codename Robotech" refer to (maybe the movie??).

Anyway, first, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at with your disagreement with my assertion that people take Robotech vs. Macross too seriously. Sure, I sound dismissive about something you're passionate about...and for that I apologize--I mean no disrespect...but I'm still not sure what you mean with your Lucasfilm/Star Wars analogy. Yes, Robotech and Macross are million dollar franchises. So? So is the media hooplah around Britney Spears' personal life. That doesn't mean that I should care about that either. Perhaps you were trying to make a different point though...

Next, I called Macross a subpar cartoon. Well, okay...it's a super-influential cartoon that, if watched again today by an adult sci-fi fan who'd never seen/heard of it before, would probably be viewed as being "subpar" (again, by today's adult sci-fi standards). Maybe that isn't true--who knows. But my point is that if this hypothetical adult sci-fi fan of today watched Robotech as well, he or she probably wouldn't enjoy one ALL that much better than the other. By today's standards, neither is all that great.

You said not to insult Macross because it was such a huge hit when it aired. Was Robotech not such a huge hit among US kids when it aired? The only reason many of us are even having this conversation is because Robotech was such a huge hit. Would anime in the States be anything like it is if it weren't for Robotech? I don't know...just pondering...

Anyway, whether something's influential or not doesn't necessarily mean I can't dog it. ;)

You probably have more insight into the Robotech "fan community" than I do (through Roger?). I have essentially ZERO connection to other Robotech fans--believe me, it was surreal as all hell when I went to see Shadow Chronicles in the theater and saw SO many other fans all in one place! Anyway, all I can say about the books is that back in the early 90's, I was reading Eternity's Robotech comics and the majority of the fan letters and editor comments printed in the backs of the issues involved plot points I had no clue about...all gleaned from the already-published McKinney novels. Judging by that alone, I would say that those novels had a BIG impact. Anyway, you're right: reading them is very different from watching the show!

Next, you say that Robotech owes everything to Macross. Sure. Of course...I don't think anyone's arguing that point. It's pretty obvious that Robotech stands on the shoulders of giants. But so did Macross--you, yourself, mentioned Yamato and Gundam. Granted, Macross was significantly more original in its offering than Robotech...but Robotech was NOT intended to be original (with respect to Macross, anyway).

Anyway, as a kid growing up in the States when Robotech aired (note: the target audience for the show), we had no access to Macross at all...let alone knowledge of its existence. So who cares? The bottom line is that the final product--Robotech--was quite enjoyable to our young minds back then...just as Macross was enjoyable to young minds back in Japan at the same time.

So, yeah, if Macek had picked Dorvak instead of Macross, Robotech may have been awful. But why wouldn't he pick the more popular show? Macross was a hit in Japan when he selected it. Again, the bottom line is that what he synthesized outta Macross and the rest was popular here, too. This is why I tend to feel that these arguments of Robotech vs. Macross are moot.

...

And, lastly, I'll just say that I commend you guys for trying to discourage people from supporting Shadow Chronicles. *I* thought it was awful and I, too, hope that no further "crap" such as this is produced.

Again, speaking as just one Robotech fan, why can't we just let the story be done? Why make more? If the bickering concerning the absurd licensing fiasco prevents a proper animating of The Sentinels, End of the Circle, and the like, then quit...........OR reboot the whole thing, just like every damn thing else. No, really: go ahead, Hollywood, keep raping my childhood... :P

--
Sanjeev

Robotech Trilogy of Pain is what Jeremy referred his reviews of the Sentinels, Robotech the Untold Story, and Codename Robotech (which is a dumb compilation movie that few people have seen). They were reviewed on this very podcast.

My Star Wars analogy was pretty bad, but I just hate when someone is like, "nerd argument! not important!" well it's sorta important to someone if people are making money on it. It's like when Marvel comic fans complain about making Iron Man into a fascist prick. Or when Spider-Man makes a deal with the devil to keep Aunt May alive. I think people have a right to be angry about that when they've been paying for it for a while.

I honestly don't put a lot of stock in adult sci-fi if what you call adult is just people being gritty alcoholics and fighting with lots of shakey-cam like in Battlestar Galactica. Macross is like I said, like Yamato and Gundam which is old style space opera. I've certainly seen modern sci-fi fans who like space opera.

As far as the novels go, I've seen some noise about them not being a part of the story anymore. Some people were celebrating it. Sure back in the 90's when Robotech was almost dead, people would draw from them because hey, the printed word demands respect. You should see some people whine about how Tommy Yune is, "trying to make his own End of Circle!"

Probably the most damning thing to Robotech is that anime just isn't handle like it was back then. Part of the problem is that the shows that make it up are enjoyable, but Robotech didn't make them that way (you wouldn't believe the people who argue that). Probably the most bizarre thing is that Carl Macek is still getting work in the anime industry despite the fact that he has not changed his ways. As Todd has told me, "If what Carl Macek did with the Dunbine dub is out of love, I'd hate to be his wife."

In the end it's a big question of, "why is this still here?" Other than brand name recognition and nostalgia, Robotech has become a big joke. It has aged a lot worse than the shows it's based on due to the horrible dubbing in where people talk constantly to fill up silence and the narrator either spoils the plot or just flat out makes stuff up (Aisha is a spy? What?). Robotech is pretty much obsolete. If "young minds" like Todd and me can enjoy these shows without Robotech, I don't think it's too much of a stretch for other young people. Macross is even dubbed now, so who needs Robotech?

I am glad we can agree on Shadow Chronicles. Although Daryl Surat of Anime World Order said my review was too soft. He wanted me to complain more about the cookie cutter character designs and the ridiculous body suits (with visible navel) that make the characters look like a bunch of copy and paste jobs. He also expressed his ire at Shadow Chronicles for having Mark Hamill utter his famous (to Wing Commander fans) "BREAK AND ATTACK!" in the Shadow Chronicles trailer but not in the final cut of the movie. I also wanted to complain about how this movie tries to imprint a lot of Macross things into Mospeada. For example, they use a lot of Macross sound effects in Shadow Chronicles which is odd because Mospeada is one of the few robot animes that had a lot of unique sound effects. Also having the big Garfish ships open up like Zentradi vessels to fire their guns and the Legioss ejecting its nose section as an escape pod is totally not from Mospeada (or any of the design material). Also the "Super Alpha" design is just a bad attempt at dressing a Legioss like a Valkyrie. So in a weird twisted way they tried to make more Macross using Mospeada set pieces.

PS. I love me some Macross 7.

-Andrew

Thanks for the clarification on the Trilogy of Pain. I figured it was basically that...but I'd forgotten exactly what pieces made it up.

But back to my dismissal of the Robotech vs. Macross argument...I know what you mean. I don't think that screaming, "NERD", is a good basis for dismissing a whole line of reasoning. I'm still not quite convinced, however, that the money-making aspect of the Robotech and Macross properties necessarily justifies the clearly emotional R vs. M argument that continually seems to go nowhere. Yes, it's true that they both continue to make money...and there's certainly stuff to be upset about concerning the assinine licensing mess that exists in the States with these properties, but I still don't see how these discussion points justify, or even relate to, all the angst that's out there...let alone the argument that one show is somehow "better" than the other.

I totally agree that Robotech would never be necessary in today's world of importing anime to the US...but hey, what's done is done, right? And Macek? Well, f that guy. But again, we can't change the past...so why argue about it? That's sorta my stance. For better or for worse, Robotech is what it is...and we can judge it on its inherent traits...just with respect to the strange historical circumstances that led to its creation. Same thing with Macross. All I know is that right now, Shadow Chronicles blew. Macross Zero blew. I pray that Frontier is good and if anything further gets made for Robotech, it doesn't make me angry (I'll probably end up skipping it anyway).

Whether they're considered "canon" or not anymore (apparently not), I dug the Robotech novels--they were enjoyable to read (as an adult) and they offered a satisfying beginning, middle, and end to the saga. Probably my favorite Macross property is Macross 7--it was just so *different* from all the other, more generic takes on the space opera...and it was done well enough to keep me happy (again--as an adult...not as a kid watching cartoons).

Oh, and just to clarify what I meant about "adult" sci-fi...I just meant stuff for the "standard" sci-fi audience. Young children are not the target audience of Shadow Chronicles--today's adults (who grew up with Robotech) are. Yeah, while I like BSG, the tense, drunk, shakey-cam stuff's getting a little old... Time to wrap up that mess...

--
Sanjeev

I think what probably happened to you is that you were entering a comment while we were rebooting the server. The server has been under an immense load since toy fair, and we are taking steps to resolve that this month.

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CollectionDX Admin

Haha. I wanted to make a comment that Shadow Chroncles does feel like one big fan film. As to your question, Tatsunoko owns Mospeada. They even have it on their website. They don't have Southern Cross or Macross on their website.

-Andrew

Andrew,

Do you think that Tatsunoko will actually do something with MOSPEADA or are pretty much content with HG's official bootlegs?

Also, in Shadow Chronicles, was there even a mention of protculture? Or was that just swept under the table?

In Shadow Chronicles Protoculture is mentioned as something that's good and powerful. Basically it replaces the concept of Laytow that the Inbit revere in Mospeada. Admiral Hunter's ship is the only one with a PROTOCULTURE MATRIX that can make more flowers I guess. Later on the crew bemoans the fact that they may run out of Protoculture but it isn't shown explicitly on screen. I'm not really sure what's going on with Mospeada in Japan outside of some toys that are being made just in time for the anniversary.

-Andrew

I know I wasn't on this podcast and have had nothing to do with this dicussion, but I would like to point out that there absolutely is a Southern Cross character in Shadow Chronicles, Louie, and Tatsunoko has just as many rights to Southern Cross as they do to Mospeada.

If you will remember from our Southern Cross episode, all of the design work and most of the talent in Southern Cross came in-house at Tatsunoko. Ohkura design group that did the mecha is Tatsunoko's in-house mecha design group, the director was Tatsunoko staff, and it was animated mostly in-house.

The reason Macross was different is that Tatsunoko only came aboard at the last minute when they were having budget and scheduling problems and Tatsunoko got international distribution rights out of the deal, whereas in Mospeada and Southern Cross' cases, Tatsunoko owns a lot more than just international distribution rights.

The real reason there is very little Southern Cross in Shadow Chronicles is the same reason the modern Harmony Gold Robotech products do not include Southern Cross themed comics or Southern Cross themed video games -- Southern Cross doesn't sell.

-Jeremy

Yup, Louie was in there, but I thought it was one of those instances where HG tweaked the character design so it wasnt exactly Tatsunoko's Louie, but its "own".

Every character design was tweaked. But that doesn't change the fact that they could do Southern Cross stuff but choose not to.

-Jeremy

Where did my post go? I had one here and today its all gone...
I'm pretty certain I didn't say anything out of line or anything.

I dunno. Is something going weird with CDX? I didn't delete anything.

-Jeremy

Place Shir in you party. Fight until Shir is level 10. Then, go in and out of the locker room in Paseo on Mota. Keep repeating until Shir disappears. Go back to your home, and Shir will rejoin your party. Look in her inventory, and you will find the visiphone. Now you can save your game anywhere!

It was probably a server error. The site's been under heavy traffic. Moderators usually post a warning after deleting a post for content.

This was kind of funny!

Anyway - we're upgrading to a new server early next week - you should see a big difference in speed when we are done.

Josh
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CollectionDX Admin